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Does anyone know results of the Navigraph Survey 2020?


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Hi,

 

I suppose many of us filled the lengthy Navigraph Survey in November 2020, and we were promised results around December, 10th, 2020. Has anyone seen any results yet? Has Orbx any information on the status of the Survey given Orbx was a partner in it?

 

Thanks and kind regards, Michael

Edited by pmb
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I'm sure most will skip to this page:

 

No real surprise to see MSFS on top, although Xplane users are always being told P3D v4 (now v5) is the more popular platform of the two, that doesn't seem to be the case based on these results - I see more users on the latest version of XP11 than I see on the latest version of P3D.

 

Does this herald the decline of P3D being that most popular 'ESP' based sim? Will the dominant platforms going forward now be MSFS and XP11?

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Edited by gordonhutchison
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As a Marketing man from way back in the 60s - I read all the 120 pages and concluded

that this was a good survey of a major Digital Simulation pastime - as opposed to a pure Gaming

one.

However -it will do nothing to the "my sim is better than your sim" arguments - and will no doubt boost that 

part of future discussions - relative to the 3 major sims.

 

The statement that because there were 3 new versions of the sim - do cast some doubts on the statements

of sim usage - because of the different introduction times

 

I did notice that a goodly part of the final summations - included the future aspect of the projected

X Box Flight Sim in mid 2021 - and the advent of increased use of flight Hardware as opposed to 

the standard gaming controller.

 

It would have been interesting to have seen a question related the X Box questions framed around 

whether - a move to X box and its 4K environment  - depended on third party addons - being forthcoming

as quick - and in the volume that the PC version has created for developers - assuming that such addons

will be technically viable for the X Box.

 

Personally - I believe Microsoft will make sure this happens - the X box market being the size that it is - and now that

MS Market place has happened - it can only grow- but installed by "Who?" is another question - the survey falls down on 

 

DX 12 will and a new SDK may put off the minor developers.

 

This time next year - no doubt the 2021 survey will answer - and by that time I will - hopefully -  have moved in the 

Zero market of 86 plus where my results are unlikely to be of use in the survey

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16 hours ago, John Heaton said:

cast some doubts on the statements

of sim usage - because of the different introduction times

I agree John - the timing of the survey coincided with a time when a major new (and attractive) sim was being enjoyed, but not developed enough to 'take over' the function of the more developed platforms. Also of those respondents that had returned to Flight Sim this year 59% had done so because of MSFS, and 20% because of the Covid situation. This must make comparisons with previous years quite difficult.

It's also likely that purchase of P3Dv5 was affected by the move to MSFS - some never going back having seen the promise of the new Sim. Is there a sense that P3D has given us all it reasonably can, but that MSFS may have greater promise once the SDK is developed and made more available?

Its also difficult to interpret the results in respect of the status of MSFS when some of the features we appear to rate highly (detailed aircraft systems, ATC and working real weather for example) were still in development or not yet available.

Also there are other developments just around the corner that we may be waiting for that will affect our responses. For example next generation graphics cards with ray tracing, and the frame rates making VR use more likely to grow.

It may therefore be difficult for developers to get as much out of this as in the past, although it's a very interesting read!

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These results are very interesting. The more when considering that probably the vast majority of those newcomers, who startet simming, because of MSFS, do not even know what Navigraph is and therefore have not taken part in the survey.

 

Very remarkable are also the XP numbers. Did not expect to see it as # 2.

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12 hours ago, wolfko said:

Very remarkable are also the XP numbers. Did not expect to see it as # 2.

Another 2 cents!!

MMM?? - not to sound argumentative - but I see different - and the reason is 

my logic is that P3D V4 and V5 are to all intents and purposes -  the same basic sim.

It could be argued that V5 was a new sim - but varies very little in fact - e.g. I use both

for different reasons all the time - low and slow VFR with mostly old birds and single engine V4

For twins - biz jets - and tubes I use V5 and the weather situation for high and distance flights.

The other reason is my hangar of some 25 Aircraft originals for V4 - and the $0000s of Orbx

 

Looking at the combined answers - for V4 and V5 - the "all the time" use is approx 27% and

total use in excess of 65% 

XP shows similar figures when V4 and V5 are added together - and both are greater than MSFS

 

The other salient points in that chart is that:-

 

P3D came out in April and has had more time to settle into a rhythm of 30% from a total of 62%

 

MSFS came out 5 months later - scores 60% total usage (purchases?)  - but dropped back in Dec to

30% full time use

 

XP 5 came out Sept - and in 3 months - jumped to 45% and in 3months fell back to 30%

 

As we have said on many occasions in similar debates - 

 

"You pays yer money - you make yer choice"

 

All Market researches are a waste of time - unless the question is Quantifiable and is at a specific equalized time

 

P.S. Did I mention that FSX - that P3D is based on - scored 5% and 25% respectively;)

 

Edited by John Heaton
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I know for sure on some more game orientated forums that rarely mentioned Flight Sims of any kind before that MS FS2020 has really taken off to the average gamer persons heart, they love it, its the visuals I suppose, but seen so many of them starting to get serious about Flight Sim now and a lot of them are asking about good controllers and what to use for this sim ... indeed, have been lazy here and upgraded rudder pedals and controllers without thought of selling, but since the popularity of MS FS2020 have since put 2 older Saitek rudder pedals on Ebay and was wow at what they sold for, because of Covid, a lot of hardware, not just PC CPU and Graphic hardware are in short supply ... Honycomb anyone? I've got my Yoke from them but on a waiting list for the Bravo throttle unit.

Have 12 x Saitek FIP instrument gauge LCD's for sale soon, but total UK lockdown here again, advise for my particular health condition is to stay inside until further notice and will do that, am well provided for with grocery delivers and friends that can go out, but once its more normal will put my FIP's on sale at Ebay ... I just know they will sell quite well and be useful for somebody.

The current Pandemic is a horrible thing, but with MS FS2020 released in time, ready or not and getting long term support and patching ... it has bought fresh blood to the hobby, this has a knock on effect for all in the industry, Orbx and even the combat simulations like DCS and more.

Not the best of times to live in, but a silver lining on a very dark cloud at least, perhaps.

The Navigraph survey results were interesting but in many areas not surprising, interesting to see the Pandemic results too and how we all deal with that in the hobby, hope they do this each year.

Stay safe everyone.

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On 1/14/2021 at 2:34 PM, wolfko said:

These results are very interesting. The more when considering that probably the vast majority of those newcomers, who startet simming, because of MSFS, do not even know what Navigraph is and therefore have not taken part in the survey.

 

 



Actually Wolfko, the Navigraph link has been posted on several gaming forums when it started, sometimes by guys like me to encourage them into the hobby, there are more Gamers coming across to FS now, this is a good thing IMHO.

A good proportion of previous non Simmers who were Gamers and looking for something new have contributed to that survey and are now contributing to the hobby as well.

Time does not stand still ... I for one welcome new blood :)

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4 minutes ago, B12 said:

Have 12 x Saitek FIP instrument gauge LCD's for sale soon, but total UK lockdown here again, 


The Navigraph survey results were interesting but in many areas not surprising, interesting to see the Pandemic results too and how we all deal with that in the hobby, hope they do this each year.
 

Just curious, why do you want to sell the FIPs? I use a panel with 9 FIPs to full advantage with MSFS. I drive them using SPAD.neXt on a networked machine, but I think Logitech provides drivers for MSFS now, too. There are quite a number of MSFS-plane specific fine gauges (C172, C152, R400)... available from the FSXTimes gauge store.

 

The only loophole is MSFS doesn't have a panel-free view at present (like 'W') but there are a couple of workarounds on the official forum.

 

Kind regards, Michael

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Hi Michael

I love Spad software and have tried the networking thing to share the FIP load.

I go back a while with the Saitek FIP's, when they first came out and as far I know, was one of only two beta testers to get an early example to evaluate, they are very good, please don't get me wrong, do like them and soon collected 12 of them, very customisable too thanks to Tom @ FSX Times whom I know quite well :)

The reason I'm dropping them is because of desk clutter, they are honestly more suited to a permanent dedicated FS home cockpit I suppose?  I know with USB its all plug and play and I use good powered USB hubs too, but my situation is more dynamic, need to replace with a plethora of military style controllers/mfd's etc, very quickly on a whim at short notice and even on occasion a good FF Steering wheel ... something had to go, in my case the FIP's, a whole bunch of Saitek panels too, Keeping the Saitek trim wheel until I get my Honeycomb Bravo throttle unit though :)

Actually, might keep one FIP as a compass on top of my screen, really looking into modelling a Garmin glass cockpit sometime later this year, some good options for that now.

Good question though
Michael, fly and keep safe during these hard pandemic times.

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19 minutes ago, B12 said:

The reason I'm dropping them is because of desk clutter, they are honestly more suited to a permanent dedicated FS home cockpit I suppose?  

Ah, that's certainly true. I switched to a permanently installed panel at a point indeed. If you like, you can find a picture on my homepage (I guess not allowed to display here as it doesn't show Orbx scenery).

 

Kind regards, Michael

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35 minutes ago, pmb said:

 If you like, you can find a picture on my homepage (I guess not allowed to display here as it doesn't show Orbx scenery).

 

Hello,

it's not the screen shot forum, so I guess it would be fine.:)

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It is a bit like AMD vs INTEL - being 5% faster than the other isn't exactly ground breaking it is then down to other factors, also one would need to know how they weighted in people who fly both as, if I recall, it did not ask "how often" of each sim. Well without being boring as my main job involved a lot of data analysis :D

 

Nice setup @pmb wish I had the space for it!

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19 hours ago, Trustdesa said:

It is a bit like AMD vs INTEL - being 5% faster than the other isn't exactly ground breaking it is then down to other factors, also one would need to know how they weighted in people who fly both as, if I recall, it did not ask "how often" of each sim. Well without being boring as my main job involved a lot of data analysis :D

 

Nice setup @pmb wish I had the space for it!

 

The question for the results showing in above graph was: "How often did you fly any of the following sims", and it gave you the possibility to choose as many sims as you liked.

 

So actually the results are pretty clear and there is not much space for interpretation left.

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3 hours ago, wolfko said:

 

The question for the results showing in above graph was: "How often did you fly any of the following sims", and it gave you the possibility to choose as many sims as you liked.

 

So actually the results are pretty clear and there is not much space for interpretation left.

 

True, I did not recall it and did not notice it up there... little change as there is no a clean KO as from the past couple of surveys... people use a bit of everything, especially now between a more realistic flight model to a more arcade one, based on what they want to do which just make sense, well except people who tribalize even behind videogames... :

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On 1/17/2021 at 6:30 PM, pmb said:

Hi,

 

thanks Nick, I see, that's the fine print. 

 

flight_simulation_big.thumb.jpg.395c5808dd2aa0544443c778dae8309b.jpg

 

Kind regards, Michael

 

Great loking setup Michael. Which type of planes are you flying with it? And out of curiousity, have you managed to get rid of the panels being displayed in MSFS? 

 

 

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1 hour ago, wolfko said:

Great loking setup Michael. Which type of planes are you flying with it? And out of curiousity, have you managed to get rid of the panels being displayed in MSFS? 

I mostly fly the small Cessnas, the C172 and the C152. The big advantage of my setup is it's optimum adapted to this use, the controls even carry a Cessna Logo:)

 

Moreover, it's well usable for most steam-gauge 1-engine propeller planes, but FSXTimes doesn't have the complete set of gauges to display on the FIPs yet (at present only the MSFS C152, C172, R400). But these are planned, and in some cases (e.g. the Bonanza) I can substitute the Prepar3d versions, which do work.

 

Obviously, it's not well-adapted for glass-cockpits. In principle, I can put the small touch-screen in front of the sixpack, solutions for this setup (based on pop-put of the G1000 + Airmanager) are in development on the official forum).

 

While I don't fly airliners usually, I have the Airbus TCA/Sidestick combo and can substitue the TPM and Yoke by these. But these hardware solutions are always a compromise: Either you have a setup perfectly fit for just one plane (like those guys with their 747 in the basement) or you're flexible to serve all planes just a bit.

 

There are several solutions to get rid of the panels, all detailed on the official forums as well. (i) Shift the view point in front of the propeller, that's what you see on the shot above, (ii) modify some airplane definition files, (iii) Asobo/MS added a menu option for home cockpit builders to get rid of the panels natively recently. Unfortunately, it doesn't work properly yet, but I hope this will be resolved in one of the next sim-updates.

 

Finally: My alternative solution (~50/50) is based on VR, i.e. HP Reverb: Fully flexible, but I miss pressing buttons and turning knobs manually.

 

Kind regards, Michael

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Just wanted to mention Michael and just looked up where EDBJ is, used to live in Germany for 3 years as a teenager, near the Dutch border, lived in Geilenkirchen but late Dad served at RAF Wildenrath ( now decommissioned and train testing base i think? ) nearby with the early GR1 Harriers back then during 72 to 75 ish in cold war times, saw those early jets up close many times up VERY close, sat in them, examined them, made mental notes that are now useful in modelling them scale wise for a different hobby :) ... very exciting times for a teenager, wonderful times, me and my Sister loved it there in Germany, made many local friends as teens as did my parents, we were made very welcome.

Live in NE Scotland beside Dads last base posting now, we were born in Scotland, the RAF try to post you back where you came from apparently, its Beside RAF Lossimouth I live ... sometimes wish I had joined my father in going into the air force, but its surprising how rare that happens, have taken many a real flying lesson but age and ill health now means that can not be viable anymore ... Flight Simulation goes a very long way to realising lost goals though

Stay safe my friend.

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