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muso7

pending True Earth UK South SP1 big FPS hit for me!!!!

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Hi guys

 

Love ORBX - fabulous update but I'm getting a big frame-rate hit with SP1

 

Just tested identical setup/location/aircraft etc pre SP1 and post SP1:-
....was always getting a comfortable 25fps minimum - now struggling around 11fps

The look of the SP1 update is fantastic but I don't know if I can cope with this fps discomfort......

 

My iMac is around 3 years old - (I wish I had considered XP11 when buying it) - however, these are the details:-

iMac (Retina 5K, 27-inch, Late 2015)

Proc 3.3GHz i5

16GB RAM

Graphics AMD Radeon R9 M395 2048 MB

 

So quite underspec'd for big healthy frame rates but if I can get over 20 most of the time (which I have been getting pre SP1) I am happy.

 

Graphics settings:-

Visual FX = Minimal

No. of World objects = Max

Texture quality = Medium

Reflection detail = Minimal

Anti aliasing = 1x

Scenery shadows = disabled

 

Any tips please?

Many thanks 

 

Pete :-)

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Pete

 

Same here. I have an older Mac than you, albeit with a higher spec:

 

iMac (Retina 5K, 27-inch, Late 2014)

Proc 3.5GHz i5

32GB RAM

Graphics AMD Radeon R9 M295X 4096 MB

 

Graphics settings:-

Visual FX = Medium

No. of World objects = Max

Texture quality = High

Reflection detail = Minimal

Anti aliasing = 2x

Scenery shadows = disabled

 

Prior to SP1 I've been getting 30 to 40 over most of the South, 25 to 30 over big cities and down to single digits over London, which is unflyable with these settings as the Mac just stops.

 

After updating X-Plane from 11.31r1 to 11.32 things remained broadly the same.

 

After installing SP1 my 30 FPS flying out of EGDD dropped immediately to 20 FPS and getting towards Bristol went down to 15 FPS and that's before I've even reached the City itself.

 

There's been an improvement over London (if you can call it that) because it now no longer brings the Mac to its knees, and 'happily' chugs along at 12 FPS. But I don't expect more that that with my machine specs.

 

I'll do some more flying to see if the frame rates improve anywhere else, but we may have traded eye candy for performance here in the Mac world.

 

Tony.

 

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Hi Tony

 

I am relieved (in an odd way) that I wasn't imagining things.

No one else seems to have experienced this - in fact a response I got in the general forums from someone - said their frame rate improved (possible not a Mac user)!!!

 

I am wondering though if this is a Mac-related issue. Would love to hear from other Mac pilots.

 

They tell us to just unzip the download into the Custom Scenery directory and just overwrite it - OK did that but then later reverted and deleted the Custom Scenery folders first, then copied the SP1 in - it did improve but still my frame rates are horribly down.

 

Hope there's an explanation/fix??

 

Thanks for responding....

 

Cheers

 

Pete :-)

 

P.S. am going to see what happens on my friend's PC (WIN7) version - he is at the same levels as me and has all the True Earth UK packages (hasn't updated to SP1 yet) - I will report back!!!

Edited by muso7
Added the "P.S."

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Pete

 

I reverted back to pre SP1 by just deleting the new folders and pasting back the old ones. I didn’t make any changes to preferences folder or shadercache. 

 

Immediately back to original frame rates, which suggests that it’s not a preferences issue. 

 

Next at to try SP1 again and then try clearing out prefs & shader. 

 

Tony

 

 

 

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HI Tony

 

I have done that too - exactly the same - my frame rate doubles (on my system) by just going back to the previous TE data

 

Just tried the clear out shaders/prefs and got a very slight improvement (about 5%)

 

I think this is an "X-Plane 11 MAC SP1" issue as everyone else seems to be OK - my frame rates are rubbish in most places - I am testing this mostly in "country" areas and not heavy city areas.

 

Can't use SP1 - can ORBX throw any light on this please

 

Thanks

 

Pete :-)

Edited by muso7
Added some info....

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Your machine is likely to struggle with this scenery due to only having 2GB of video RAM and perhaps the PBR autogen has pushed it over the edge. You can try to revert to the non-PBR autogen and see if it helps,

 

1) Go into your X-Plane 11 folder,

2) Look for the folder called "Custom Scenery", there should be a folder in there called "Orbx_B_GB_South_TrueEarth_Overlay".

3) Inside "Orbx_B_GB_South_TrueEarth_Overlay", you'll see two folders "autogen" and "autogen_old"

4) Rename "autogen" to "autogen_pbr"

5) Rename "autogen_old" to "autogen"

 

This will revert the autogen back to the original non-PBR based autogen. 

 

Please report back and let us know if you see any improvement. I'm working on a 1.5 update to this scenery to address some issues and hopefully optimise a few things better

 

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Thanks Tony - tried that but my low frame rate remained the same....

It's strange - as soon as I replace the SP1 folders with the originals all is perfect.....

It seems the WINDOWS users aren't complaining of anything like this and I wondered if it might have something to do with the way it is distributed differently for Mac.

 

Anyhow, thanks for replying

 

Kind regards

 

Pete :-)

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Tony

 

Having had a similar frame rate drop to Pete, I tried the autogen folder swap. It did make a difference, but it was only slight, at max 5 FPS.

 

It did strike me that neither Pete nor I quoted the screen resolution we were using. Mine is set to 'Default Monitor settings', which on my 27" 5K monitor would suggest its 5120 x 2880, but it's not, because if I manually set it to 5120 x 2880 everything gets dramatically smaller and it goes to 5 FPS on the tarmac at EGGD! So i don't actually know what setting XP is deciding to use.

 

But with a Radeon R9 M295X 4096 MB graphics card I'm not surprised that the machine is starting to struggle. I'm also fairly certain that it would be unflyable with these settings in Prepare3D.

 

The really strange thing is that even running between 16 FPS to 25 FPS, (according to the XP frame rate counter), it's still all perfectly smooth and continues to fly like a dream. And the scenery is simply outstanding. So much better than any previous photorealistic scenery on FSX, and running natively on a Mac so no more Bootcamp.

 

So I think I'll just turn off the frame rate counter, stop worrying and enjoy the view. Oh, and just remember avoid London of course until I can save up for one of the new i9, 8Mb graphics iMacs released today,

 

Tony (P).

 

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Hi, I don't think it's just mac users as a number of window users have reported drops in frame rates. I have a gtx1080 card and noticed 4-5fps reduction. I can still fly happily but noticed particularly in VR the egg timer comes up one every few minutes. Seems like my system is having to think harder about the extra detail that has been added. I note the developers state there shouldn't be any loss of frames. Love the update though and visuals are the best I've seen. I did once get a crash to desktop when timer came on so a little concerned. 

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I've noticed that with the update I get pauses every few seconds. This seems to be prevalent around the Cardiff area. Tried the suggestion of non PBR autogen but the issue still remains. Anyone else experienced anything similar? 

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Yes john I've noticed a big increase in pauses although not noticed it specific to Cardiff. I rebuilt windows with fresh xplane install couple of months ago and noticed a good benefit to frame. I've just seem a comment on instructions to delete xplane pref files to increase fps which is an interesting read. However these pauses well a lot less noticeable at least for me prior to sp1. Sounds like orbx maybe looking into ways of increasing performance. 

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On further testing it tends to be anywhere that's built up. It's especially noticeable when panning and flying in tight turns. I do only have 8gb of ram so maybe pushed my system just over the edge. 

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I think I count myself lucky then, because at least on the Mac the lower frame rates doesn't translate into pauses, egg timers or any other visual anomaly. If I didn't have the frame rate counter on I wouldn't know that it was noticeable lower. But I have to agree it is far more marked over cities - over Bristol now drops me to around 16 FPS although unbelievably, it's still flyable.

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I'm using and develop on a Mac, but that has 4GB of video RAM and not 2GB and frame-rates have stayed around the same for me between the two versions. The only other thing I can think of if the PBR change isn't making any difference are the trees. There are likely in SP1 more of them because I changed the way they were placed, but I actually found it improved for me as I changed the LOD distance on smaller trees so it should actually be better.

 

Can you please try this and just let me know.

 

1) Go into Custom Scenery and temporarily remove the Orbx_A_GB_South_TrueEarth_Custom folder (don't delete it).

2) Start up X-Plane and fly around some areas that are causing you problems with the FPS counter on (Ctrl+Shift+F)

 

Basically, we're disabling all the landmarks to see if this is the one having an impact. The 300+ new landmarks are really the only thing that has dramatically changed between the original version that should have such an impact on FPS. 

 

 

 

 

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Tony

 

I've tried a number of scenarios in various locations a) Pre SP1, b) Post SP1, c) SP1 with autogen changed and d) with Custom Folder removed (still to do). I'll also tried deleting and re-building preferences. Default Cessna used with no other add-ons.

 

FPS are shown below, although there were 1 to 2 FPS variations depending on view - I did each several times so these are averages :

                                                           Pre SP1     SP1     Autogen       Custom

EGDD Runway front view               a) 32          b) 26      c)  26         d) awaited

EGDD Takeoff side view                a) 29           b) 23     c)  23         d) awaited

Avonmouth 4,000 ft                        a) 26           b) 21     c)  22         d) awaited

Bristol City 4,000                            a) 18           b) 14     c)  15         d) awaited

 

The variation of 5 FPS seems less than I experienced on first using SP1, but this may just be because of where I was flying/looking.

 

Clearing out and rebuilding the Preferences folder didn't really have any impact; in fact I lost my keyboard & joystick Pref files at one point and replaced the complete Preferences folder from one in Time Machine from Jan 1st and there were no real FPS changes compared to a re-built one. I don't know whether this is more when running under Windows than on a Mac.

 

One final point - I have a FusionDrive. I don't know if everything is loaded into RAM or if autogen loads 'as you go', in which case I don't know if there will be variations depending on what is cached on the SSD.

 

I'll try and un without custom folder tomorrow. Hope this helps.

 

Tony (P)

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19 hours ago, tonywob said:

I'm using and develop on a Mac, but that has 4GB of video RAM and not 2GB and frame-rates have stayed around the same for me between the two versions. The only other thing I can think of if the PBR change isn't making any difference are the trees. There are likely in SP1 more of them because I changed the way they were placed, but I actually found it improved for me as I changed the LOD distance on smaller trees so it should actually be better.

 

Can you please try this and just let me know.

 

1) Go into Custom Scenery and temporarily remove the Orbx_A_GB_South_TrueEarth_Custom folder (don't delete it).

2) Start up X-Plane and fly around some areas that are causing you problems with the FPS counter on (Ctrl+Shift+F)

 

Basically, we're disabling all the landmarks to see if this is the one having an impact. The 300+ new landmarks are really the only thing that has dramatically changed between the original version that should have such an impact on FPS. 

 

 

 

 

 

Hey Tony

 

Thanks for bearing with us on this.

I have maintained a constant location check and setup with all of this (at Dunsfold EGTD)

I do understand that my Mac is lower spec'd but was getting 25fps at this location and then 11 after SP1

 

Just taken your advice above and the frame rate jumped up a little to 14/15.

 

Again - really appreciate your support 

 

 

Cheers

 

Pete :-)

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Thanks Pete

 

So really the only thing that can possibly cause this for you now are the trees, so at least now it's something I can investigate again further and see if I can improve it. I have an older NVidia 2GB GPU Macbook Pro that I can try this on, because it seems at least with more than 2GB of video RAM I'm really not seeing any substantial difference in performance between the two (if you exclude the upgraded landmark areas)

 

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Tony

 

I've just completed the final readings, which does indicate that removing the Custom folder does show an increase in frame rates in high scenery areas at least.

 

                                                          Pre SP1     SP1     Autogen       Custom

EGDD Runway front view               a) 32          b) 26      c)  26         d) 25

EGDD Takeoff side view                a) 29           b) 23     c)  23         d) 24

Avonmouth 4,000 ft                        a) 26           b) 21     c)  22         d) 25

Bristol City 4,000 ft                         a) 18            b) 14     c)  15         d) 18

 

I too have 4GB of video RAM in my iMac, yet I'm seeing reduced frame rates, albeit less of a reduction than Pete. Is there any chance that the graphics card itself, RAM or CPU could have an impact and explain why you're not seeing a reduction yet I am even with the same amount of RAM?

 

There is one further anomaly. Having used MS FS for 30 years I'm used to low frame rates which get worse when you fly low and fast. Yet today I flew the XTrident Tornado low and fast over Norfolk, able to navigate via every beautifully crafted road & village in all of TE's superb detail, but crucially, without any loss i frame rates compared to flying the Cessna, which would have been unheard of in FS X. Low and fast would have killed frame rates even more.

 

Whatever the issue with SP1 and frame rates, it is totally different in X-Plane on the Mac to what I've previously experienced in FS X. 

 

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9 hours ago, Tornado16 said:

TE's superb detail, but crucially, without any loss i frame rates compared to flying the Cessna, which would have been unheard of in FS X. Low and fast would have killed frame rates even more.

 

My guess is it's video RAM. Once you hit that limit, it doesn't matter what you're flying it will suffer if you exhaust up RAM. I don't own the Tornado, but does it use PBR materials/high res textures compared to the Cessna?. A high-res PBR based cockpit can indeed also give quite a frame-rate hit if you're running close to the RAM threshold.

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Will jump into this thread because I too have noticed a change with the new SP, whereas before I could maintain 30fps everywhere (I have all South Central and North installed and nothing else incidentally) I now see regular dips to the mid 20's and even lower on occasions. I have Visual Effects on High, Texture Quality Maximum, AA on 4x SSAA, World Objects High, Reflection Detail Minimal. Resoilution is 3440 x 1440. Interestingly though according to the Texture Quality slider in XP (which I understand may not be much of a guide) I've currently got 10924mb of textures loaded sat on the ground at EGDD. I'm running an 11gb Nvidia 1080ti so perhaps when I start to move additional textures are loaded and that causes the slow down?

 

Not scientific and I've not yet tried the suggestions above but perhaps the issue isn't limited to low memory cards or macs?

 

 

 

Paul

Edited by suspman
typo

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Tony

 

Further to my previous frame rate tests, I now been able to do some tests on video RAM and textures loaded, using the same settings as the previous FPS tests i.e. Default X-Plane, no add-ons, no clouds (clouds etc just bomb FPS on a Mac with this spec):

 

                                                                    X-Plane Cessna                                             X-Trident Tornado

                                                               Pre SP1         Post SP1                                       Pre SP1          SP1

EGDD Runway front view                   3158 MB       3651 MB                                      4041 MB      4537 MB 

Avonmouth 4,000 ft                            3158 MB       3651 MB                                      4041 MB      4537 MB

 

 

On the face of it the figures show that a) the default Cessna is more texture friendly than the Tornado (which in non-PBR based) and b) that there is about a 500 MB increase in textures as result of SP1. In each case there was a 2 or 4 MB variation depending on view - TrackIR used.

 

However, the weird thing is that I did the same tests yesterday and the Post SP1 Cessna textures on the Runway at Bristol used 4894MB as opposed to 3651 today. All setting were the same on both occasions. I haven't been able to recreate that today no matter how many times I swap over the various sceneries and aircraft!

 

Tony (P)

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Just to hijack this and reinforce what is in my other thread, this is certainly not a mac only issue and with 11GB of video ram on a 1080ti I would say it is unlikely to be video ram related.  There is something very wrong with SP1 and it is affecting frame rates in VR by such a significant amount as to make xplane unusable in the southern area.  I'd really like the option to roll back to pre-sp1 please, I have too much money tied up in hardware as well as software to have it sitting there gathering dust.  It worked fine pre-sp1, please let's have the option to go back there while you come up with the solution.

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L

14 hours ago, sunjunkiesi said:

It worked fine pre-sp1, please let's have the option to go back there while you come up with the solution.

 

Not sure how you revert under Windows but on the Mac it’s as easy as removing the two updated scenery folders from SP1 (Custom and Overlay I think - not at my machine at the moment) and replacing them with the two folders that were there before the update. Assuming of course that you kept a copy prior to doing the SP1 update. 

 

I’ve been doing it frequently over the last week or so to test before and after flying. 

 

But it’s also worth mentioning that on my relatively low spec’d Mac, even with the reduced frame rates,  SP1 is still very playable. That suggests SP1 is behaving differently on the two operating systems and for once (and it’s probably the first time this has ever been said), the game is performing better on a Mac than on a PC. 

 

There again, you are flying under VR, which probably accounts for some of the different impact. 

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Yeah, sadly whilst the autogen has been saved, (autogen_old) there is nothing else to roll back to.  I tried rolling back the autogen but it made no difference, other than looking awful.  I have deleted shaders and .prf files. 

 

I have started to use JV's suggestion of twickvr which will still not maintain 45fps in any mode.  I get very very smooth VR at 45fps in orthoxp areas at 17, default scenery locations and only a very slight stutter in the TEGB Mid area using the same settings, yet I am constantly dipping below 30 and having constant bile inducing stutters when in the TEGB South area.  

 

I am getting only 50% CPU usage (8600K @4.5ghz) and my GPU (1080ti) is barely stretching its legs yet I am struggling to get a usable product right now, and feeling a bit hacked off.  

 

Can we get a recognition that there is a problem that is being worked on, or have we reached the end of what the x-plane 11 architecture can deliver, even with a fairly robust system?  Either way it would be great to get some sort of feedback about these issues.

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It would still be appreciated if someone could step in and either confirm that there's an issue that's being worked on, or if I should just uninstall tegbs and go back to ortho for a usable system? 

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I've come into this thread a bit late but AMD cards are very under specified when compared to Nvidia for OpenGL rendering, which Xplane uses.

 

I realised this some years ago when I used AutoCAD and 3ds Max and waited forever for rendering to complete.

 

Vulkan should equalise it a little by reducing the draw calls on the card.

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32 minutes ago, Fizzelle said:

I've come into this thread a bit late but AMD cards are very under specified when compared to Nvidia for OpenGL rendering, which Xplane uses.

 

I realised this some years ago when I used AutoCAD and 3ds Max and waited forever for rendering to complete.

 

Vulkan should equalise it a little by reducing the draw calls on the card.

 

Normally I would agree with you, and from my experience Nvidia cards always did better than AMD on a PC running FSX.

 

But in this case sunjunkiesi appears to be getting, in his words, 'constant bile inducing stutters' with his 1080ti whilst my modest AMD Radeon R9 M295X 4096 MB remains perfectly smooth without stutters, blurries or any other issues even at lower frame rates.

 

Flying into EGDD tonight was down to 22 FPS, certainly lower than pre-SP1, but whereas with FSX (and I assume P3D), 22 FPS would be start to become unflyable, with the Mac it still flies well and without the frame rate counter you would never know the FPS were so low.  

 

It may well be that for some inexplicable reason the Mac copes better than a PC with AMD cards and lower frame rates. It certainly seems to deliver a better X-Plane/TE GB South experience than many PC users are getting. Or perhaps it's because there are so few add-ons for X-Plane on the Mac compared to X-Plane running under Windows to complicate matters.

 

 

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6 hours ago, sunjunkiesi said:

It would still be appreciated if someone could step in and either confirm that there's an issue that's being worked on

I confirm, it's an issue being worked on.

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Thanks Tony

 

Tornado - Just to confirm the bile inducing stutters are because I am in VR - if you get too low a frame rate it can really play havoc with your lunch.  22fps would probably mean my breakfast would go too.

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Did the developer ever figure out for sure what causes the big FPS hit in SP1and will it be addressed before moving on to new TE products?

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On 4/5/2019 at 10:37 PM, tonywob said:

I confirm, it's an issue being worked on.

Just another chaser on this issue.  I have been testing myself to try and determine what the issue is and I believe it might be related to roads?  The FPS hits only occur over built up areas even without any autogen showing and traffic set to zero.  Is this possible?

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@tonywob hi I've found a reproducible flaw at Stansted EGSS airport. The sim freezes when passing either runway threshold. The most evident is Rwy 04 where the plane literally freezes just before passing the center of the TDZ. You can try with the default 737 to check.

This is exclusively due to Orbx TE, because with the stock scenery everything is fine. I've also disabled all plugins and I've kept only the Global Airports to exclude any other possible interference with TE. If you can find out what is causing this. Thanks.

Edit: I've narrowed down the problem to the "B" folder (Overlay).

Edited by H2O2

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I've got deeper into the EGSS threshold freeze problem and I've found that it stops occuring in these two cases:

 

1) by setting Objects at less or equal than LOW

OR

2) by NOT loading (renaming) adjacent tile +51-001.dsf (West London) in the "B" folder

 

So it seems that on that precise point the CPU/GPU is not able to render all the loaded objects and the freeze occurs (pity that point is exactly the TDZ where you would need the maximum smoothness!).

I've got a GTX1080ti and a fair 7600K CPU so I think my hardware is pretty much ok.

Hope it helps and pls advise if this needs a separate thread.

Regards

Edited by H2O2

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I think it's great that we're getting somewhere on the issue at egss, and I'm really happy to see that orbx are taking an interest in that issue. Is there any way I can bring this thread back onto topic and concentrate on the fps drop several people are reporting for the whole tegbs package since update sp1? I've taken autogen out of the equation by seeing it to zero, yet I still see fps drops to below acceptable levels around towns and cities. Therefore the only thing I can think is that it may be related to how the roads are being modeled, as there are more roads in towns and cities than there are in open areas. Is this observational bias or is it in some way useful to the devs to track this issue down? 

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7 hours ago, H2O2 said:

I've got deeper into the EGSS threshold freeze problem and I've found that it stops occuring in these two cases:

 

1) by setting Objects at less or equal than LOW

OR

2) by NOT loading (renaming) adjacent tile +51-001.dsf (West London) in the "B" folder

 

So it seems that on that precise point the CPU/GPU is not able to render all the loaded objects and the freeze occurs (pity that point is exactly the TDZ where you would need the maximum smoothness!).

I've got a GTX1080ti and a fair 7600K CPU so I think my hardware is pretty much ok.

Hope it helps and pls advise if this needs a separate thread.

Regards

 

Just to go back to this for a moment. Using the Mac version of X-Plane and TE GB South, I've not had any problems flying in and out of EGSS. I've tried various aircraft including default Cessna, 737 and even the X-Trident Tornado, taking off and landing in both directions and flying across in various directions.. My iMac spec is well below that of your PC (see below) but is stays solid at between 25 and 30 FPS. Objects set at Maximum by the way.

 

So perhaps this is an issue that is specific to X-Plane/TEGB Windows versions. I'll give it a go with the Windows version under Bootcamp & see if I can reproduce it there.

 

And with regard to general flyability, I've also loaded X-Plane & TEGB on an external USB 3 SSD and run the Windows versions under Bootcamp. FPS is definitely worse that running it natively on a Mac, but only noticeably so over large cities where it grinds to a halt (over Southanpton for example). This isn't surprising really given the spec of my iMac, but interestingly, when running the same flight over Southampton on native Mac versions & not under Windows, it doesn't bring everything to a halt and flies much better.

 

It would appear from my own tests under OSX and Windows 10,  a) TEGB runs better and on a lower spec under the Mac version of X-Plane than the Windows version and b) from what I've read on here, the Windows version of TEGB appears to work better on X-Plane than with P3D.

 

 

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Is the FPS hit ever going to be addressed, this post is slipping down the list into oblivion. if it's not, is there anyway to go back to pre SP1 if you didn't backup or if you uninstall / reinstall does it automatically install pre SP1.

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