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737 Parking Bays and SID charts for Coffs Habour and Tamworth

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Hi,

 

Just curious if any one knows the correct parking bays at Coffs Habour and Tamworth for Heavies such as 737s  (not actually a question for Orbx Team). Have done a search in the Orbx forums but no joy to such information.

 

So finally after all these years of having Coffs Habour and then Tamworth. I have finally moved from GA into flying Heavies ie the 737.  Loaded Navigraph and behold Navigraph is a little light on for Coffs Habour and Tamworth in parking bays and SIDS,  to the point Navigraph does not have a chart with any numbers of parking areas for 737s on chart 10-9.  Or is there a SID for either airport.  I notice on the Orbx pictures there are 737s at Coffs and articles from Coffs Habour confirms they can fly in and out of at least Coffs Habour, but nowhere can I find the correct areas to park it. Orbx lists Ramps at both airports, so clearly 2 or 3 of these would be the correct one for Heavies. So any help or ideas most appreciated.

 

Also is anyone aware of a SID for Coffs Habour or Tamworth (as nothing in Navigraph,  or do most doing IFR just find a waypoint close by as the first point of there IFR flight.

 

Thanks for any ideas.

Anthony

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Hello Anthony.

 

Real world charts are available from the Airservices Australia website:

 

http://www.airservicesaustralia.com/aip/aip.asp

 

Down the bottom of the page, click "I Agree". Then click "Departure and Approach Procedures". There are two dates listed, you can choose either.  Then click "Aerodrome & Procedure Charts" and choose "C" from the Table of Contents and then scroll down to Coffs Harbour (YCFS). Please note that the ICAO code for the airport was changed some time after Orbx developed the scenery. This is the problem with using the later versions of Navigraph, the ICAO code for the airport, YSCH, is no longer listed. 

You can see from the listing there are no SIDS or STARS available. There are DME, VOR and RNAV arrivals listed for you to use.

 

If you scroll back to the top you can then choose "T" from the Table of Contents, Tamworth is at the top of the list. There are DME, VOR, ILS, NDB and RNAV approaches to choose from. It probably won't do you much good as a lot of the intersections that are built into FSX/P3D are no longer in use or their names have been changed. LOL

 

Cheers Bernie

 

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Hi

 

Flightaware is your friend.  For example:

DCT CFS J70 COOPA Q78 OLTIN W180 TESAT H65 RAZZI Q29 LIZZI was TT705 to Tullamarine this afternoon.  There isn't a SID.  Probably just vectored to BANDA once with Centre.

 

DCT TW W130 OLTIN W180 TESAT was QLK2007 out of Tamworth.  Looks like it climbed downwind until it picked up the radial out of TW for OLTIN (via W130).

 

Don't assume everything is flown LNAV/VNAV from TOGA to turn off just because there's a box by your virtual knee.  Vectors and shortcuts aren't uncommon.

 

 

Mike

 

 

 

 

 

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Thanks guys,

 

Will head to Flightware. Should have remembered that’s the go to place for my issue. Will also check AIr Services Australia.

 

Much appreciated

Anthony

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I seem to remember that Orbx Coffs parking bays 2 and 3 will handle a B737 but the Parking bay size is set, in the Orbx bgl, to small (for Dash 8s etc).

No real problem but if you use the GSX add on it will say 'no ground service is available' as you are parked at a too small parking bay. Just go into GSX, modify Parking position, and upgrade the size.

(I am a great fan of the Air Services Charts)

Aussie

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Hi Anthony,

Others may have better input regarding parking, however I can probably assist with the departures. Following on from Mike's comments regarding vectoring - it's even simpler than that. Generally speaking the only people who vector are approach controllers. So mostly, departures from smaller airports are almost entirely under pilot navigation. I know Coffs Harbour operates under what's called "procedural separation." Tamworth may be different as it's a joint civil-military field and I believe ATC is provided by the military. 

 

Smaller procedural towers don't usually operate on SIDs. SIDs are designed to enhance busy airspace by keeping all aircraft on known routes, clear of other routes (inbound/outbound) and keep clear of obstacles. This is not normally an issue in Class D airspace, like that that surrounds Coffs Harbour. Further, procedural towers don't use primary radar feeds for separation, instead utilising VOR radials (where applicable), distance and altitude for separation. Most procedural airspace that has SIDs (that I'm aware of), the instructions are usually just climb to 800' then turn left (or right) to intercept the XXX radial outbound or a GNSS route. Most radials would normally match up with a published route anyway. 

 

Airliners tend to also use company departure procedures that are a combination of a "pseudo-SID" and an engine out escape procedure. These are created by the airlines (or by providers such as Jeppesen on behalf of airlines). Big bucks are spent on these to establish obstacle data and surveys and therefore closely guarded documents. In the absence of SIDs, ATC take-off instruction is usually along the lines of "Velocity 1166 cleared for take-off, make left (or right) turn." This also implies approval to track in accordance with the route clearance obtained prior to taxi. Usually, this would be what's planned. Sometimes however it may require initially tracking outbound on a different radial to ensure separation with other traffic. In the latter case the turn after take-off would then be to intercept the cleared radial. Once clear of traffic, the tower or Centre (depending on the point at which separation is assured) would then normally just clear you from present position direct to a waypoint in your flightplan rather than vectoring.

 

Having said all that, based on FlightRadar24 data it would seem that for Coffs at least, the 737's and A320's heading south (Sydney/Melbourne) make a right turn off 03 (standard circuit direction off 03 at Coffs) at around 1,500'. This follows a sweeping right climbing turn to intercept outbound track. For 21, heading South, they make a right hand turn. Legally, this can't be made until 500' above circuit (which would be 1600' for a high performance aircraft, so not below 2,100') or outside 3nm (which is considered the outer boundary of the circuit). Essentially, what you're aiming to do is remain clear of obstacles or terrain.

 

I'm not sure what your experience level is but if you look at an approach plate for an airport there is either a circle with different numbers and possibly sectors marked out (older Navigraph/Jeppesen and ASA) or in the middle of the approach diagram, a brown circle with numbers (newer Navigraph/Jeppesen only). These are your Minimum Safe Altitudes (MSA's). Above these heights you can be sure you won't run into anything fixed (i.e. other aircraft notwithstanding). The inner ring is 10nm and the outer is 25nm. You can see with the Coffs Harbour one, they are broken up into smaller sectors, likely due to terrain, obstacles or both. In the Western half, the 10nm MSA is 5,000' however on the Eastern side, as long as you are within that specific sector, it comes down to 2,500'. In a light aircraft going from sea level to 2,500' climbing at around 500-700 feet per minute, will take many miles and around 3-5 minutes. For a high performance jet climbing at 3,000-4,000 feet per minute it will take less than a minute and probably only 1-2 miles. Making a turn in an Easterly direction at 1,500' you only need to climb another 1,000' to enter the 2,500' MSA and be protected by that. Climbing at 150kts and 4,000 feet per minute will take approximately 0.5nm and 15secs.

 

If you've loaded the route into the FMS then you should already have the route CFS-BANDA (track 213°). Once you've completed the turn, it's as simple as intercepting that route. Normal IFR intercepts are considered to be 30° (45° if required). So if you made a right hand turn off runway 03 - you'd be aiming for a heading of between 243-258° to intercept. Once established on the intercept heading you can safely push the LNAV button and the autopilot will complete the intercept and join the flight planned route.

 

At the end of the day, what you're aiming for is getting from an environment that's filled with threats (terrain, other aircraft, obstacles, etc.) to one where you can limit the threats as much as possible. Other aircraft can really be removed, so what's the only way to remove the risk of obstacles/terrain? Get to an altitude above them. A light aircraft may not be able to fly a SID as the required climb rate may exceed the available performance. So what would you do in that circumstance, or if departing from a small field that has no SID? Initial IFR training teaches you to climb above the airport where you know it's safe until you're at an altitude that's going to keep you clear. That may mean lingering in the area for a few minutes longer, but that's the safest option. In a high performance aircraft you can utilise that additional performance to fly a bit more efficiently. It's almost a mental checklist before you maneouvre to the outbound track: 

  1. Am I at a safe altitude?
  2. If I turn now can I be sure I'll be clear of all terrain or obstacles?
  3. If I suffer an engine failure will I still be safe (airliners are required to be able to climb on one engine as part of the certification requirements)?
  4. Am I clear of all traffic?
  5. Have I met all my legal and ATC requirements?

If the answer is "yes" to all the above, then it's safe to turn. 

 

Hope that clears things up a bit for you.

 

Cheers,

Haydn

 

 

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thanks Ausie 123, much appreciated for the numbers.

 

And thanks Haydn for the detailed reply. Most informative and worth remembering. New to the Heavies as real flying is GA so the Heavies are a learning curve esp with the full scale 737 cockpit.  But a great challenge.to keep the brain going in retirement.

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No problems at all. Learning a complex aircraft is a steep learning curve for everyone (professional pilot's are not excluded from that). In my experience, the saying "you get out what you put in" has always rung true. If you're prepared to put in the work and really think about - you'll find it very interesting.

 

You'd probably also be surprised how much of your GA experience still carries up to flying a commercial jetliner. Despite having a few extra systems and such the wings and primary controls still work the same as a light aircraft! A lot of those acronyms and such you learn in initial flight training always stick with you - if they aren't embedded in checklists (perhaps under different names but still the same concept) then you quite often find yourself still doing it in your head!

 

Enjoy!

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